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VEOH: STEALING VIDEOBLOGS?
UPDATE FROM VEOH: They're doing what the community asked. See also, Open letter from Veoh. Bravo.
. . .
The vlogophere is on fire with news of Veoh stealing videos and video feeds from videobloggers. For example, here's Minnesota Stories on Veoh, listed as an "unclaimed feed." This means they've harvested my content, and the content of perhaps hundeds of other vlogs, without my permission. They've forced me to be part of their community. No opt-out. I can, however, claim my feed and get a link back to my site. Well gee, thanks.
What kind of way is this to do business?
Dmitry Shapiro, CEO of Veoh Networks, Inc. has smartly responded in the videoblogging group. He says they considered "creating a site where we would link to videoblogs, but felt that this may cause you to experience significant costs. The reason we transcode the content is to offload those costs from you to us."
I sure wouldn't want to start a video aggregator in this climate. On one hand, you could play it safe like FireAnt and require an opt-in to be listed in their directory. They're not hosting your content, only linking to it with a thumbnail and description. Downside? They're not comprehensive. On the other end of the spectrum, you can go out and grab every RSS feed you can find, and tolerate/encourage copyrighted content. Then you've got a comprehensive site, but it's not legitimately comprehensive.
Veoh knows what they're doing. I'm sure they decided this approach was worth trying. What's the worst that can happen? Lawsuits for copyright infringement, for one. Perhaps even worse - a very influential community of videobloggers might complain loudly and put your entire business in danger. That's what we're seeing right now, and Veoh is trying to put out the fire.
I think Veoh will learn from this and survive. They're venture-backed, so they're probably more concerned about YouTube than videobloggers.
MORE ON VEOH: We Are the Media, Eric Rice, Josh Kinberg
UPDATE: I haven't yet asked Veoh to remove the Minnesota Stories feed. Here's why...
Rocketboom's Andrew Baron writes:
I am realizing that for my intent, I kinda screwed myself a bit here. [...] I wasn't feeling threatened by Veoh, I never hear about them except for on this list, I dont know anyone who uses their site, and feel that the way its set up, it going to fail on its own without us, so thus, irregardless of my action in the case, Rocketboom has likely lost out on this one by not having Rocketboom's feed there. In otherwords, instead of moulding to the environment (for there are no doubt some people who like to use the site), knowing that a) most people who really like Rocketboom will eventually figure out where it's coming from and how to get there (we say so in every video), and b) believing that the Veoh system will self-destruct in its present form with or without us, so its not an issue of morality, we might of been more effective for the people that are still there.
In essence -- it's better for more people to get exposed to Minnesota Stories. They will realize that mnstories.com is the source of this content if they really like it. The subscribers listed on Veoh are probably fake. Is it really hurting me?
I've recently considered posting select MNstories videos on YouTube, Google Video, etc. for the express purpose of finding a wider audience. I have a Mooki clip on iFilm with 8,825 views (!). They link to my site and the video is branded with MNstories. Of course, they asked for permission for that specific video and I happily granted it.
One problem with harvesting my feed is that I feature other people's content. David Howell has kindly given me permission to feature a couple of his videos on MNstories. He has not given Veoh permission. Of course I don't have any formal agreement with MNstories contributors defining what other uses are granted, but it's understood that we're talking about the Minnesota Stories web site + RSS feed. I could go through the bother of trying to "claim" my Veoh feed and see if it's possible to delete select videos. More likely, it will be easiest to simply remove it.
Wouldn't it have been nice if they simply asked me?
April 8, 2006 at 03:34 PM in Videoblogging | Permalink
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» Veoh + Videobloggers = crazy license infringement from devlon duthie
Ok, its been a big deal since yesterday morning when Josh Leo informed us (via the Yahoo Videoblogging group ) that some videobloggers had their feeds on the Veoh network (no, you dont get a link). So I go and check to see if mine ... [Read More]
Tracked on Apr 8, 2006 11:33:43 PM
Comments
one of my videos:
http://www.veoh.com/videoDetails.html?v=e54433pSxgGgE4&feature=1&order=tr&range=w&numResults=20&title=Top+Rated
has been viewed 900 times on their damn site even though i asked them to stop using my videos like 5 days ago
argh
Posted by: Duncan at Apr 8, 2006 5:41:26 PM
Well, it appears that VEOH has been reading the videobloggers list. My server log files shows someone from San Diego (where VEOH is headquartered) going to my site and then going directly to the videos that were stolen. Surprisingly enough, 2 of the 3 videos they stole of mine have been removed from their site. That kind of indicates that they know they are in the wrong and are trying to clean up their mess.
The only one remaining is one of the videos that MNStories ran.
Of course, these are only the ones that I've actually found. No idea how many of mine were stolen by them.
Posted by: David at Apr 8, 2006 6:51:41 PM
and don't forget loadedpun.com. we broke the story yesterday morning after Josh Leo first posted on it to the group.
we have been and continue to be in contact with dmitry as this mess is figured out.
getting exposure for your site is great. getting it through these means is not so great. this case will set a precedant with other video hosting companies. think long and hard before you decide to go with the flow.
-Anne
Posted by: Anne Walk at Apr 8, 2006 11:12:09 PM
This whole thing really sucks, but I think it would be better to claim the feed. Then at least it's in your realm. I don't know what claiming a feed could actually mean, but if someone has the MNStories.com feed, then they can claim other things, possibly change the feed, and/or misrepresent Minnesota Stories.
I think for the integrity of your site and yourself, you should bite the bullet and claim the feed because I doubt that Veoh has a rigorous check to see if the site you claim is your own. Better for you to have it than someone else.
Posted by: Dan at Apr 9, 2006 9:07:38 AM
It's actually a bit of a pain in the ass to claim the feed. You have to insert some custom code into the RSS feed, which only I can do (I hope). But since I use FeedBurner, it gets a little sticky...
Posted by: chuck at Apr 9, 2006 12:36:20 PM
I have to agree with Anne.
Sure, I would love tons of people watching my videos. Do I want them watching my videos because someone else stole them and rehosted them on another site without my permission? No.
Posted by: David at Apr 10, 2006 8:55:41 AM
David: The worst part of this is that there is no linkback, no attribution. All these new viewers that you might get from Veoh wouldn't really be your viewers.
They'd belog to Veoh. Unless you have a url at the end of your clips and they felt like manually typing that in (like anyone does that anymore) these viewers would have to go back to Veoh to watch.
Posted by: Devlon at Apr 10, 2006 12:57:36 PM
The lack of linkbacks/attribution is definitely one of the biggest problems with what they did (and are hopefully rectifying now).
This is such a complicated issue. I'm not sure even a Creative Commons license addresses these issues - basically, under what conditions are you okay with your video playing someplace else?
We all might have different answers to that. I thought NBC was idiotic for clamping down on YouTube for playing "Lazy Sunday." If they were smart, they'd want "Lazy Sunday" to be wherever the kids are watching and sharing videos. Making them jump through hoops and restricting how they watch/share a video like that is just plain stupid, from a business perspective and a human nature perspective.
This is obviously different, but the same dillemas are here. Attribution, linkbacks, and - probably? - permission are very important. But when you offer an RSS feed of your content, you're giving up some control about where that content will be played. I think the reality is, your feed will end up in RSS readers and devices - but also in aggregators.
If MegaVlogUniverse.com (or whatever) becomes the place where it's easy to watch all your favorite vlogs, and people decide that's easier than going to each individual vlog , then you bet that's where I want to be. I want to be in the FireANT directory, and MeFeedia, and maybe even Veoh in spite of their missteps.
Why do you vlog? What do you get out of it, and does your audience matter? I think it does to most people creating content. Aggregators are one way the power of the Long Tail will come into play. Even if you're a strictly personal vlogger looking to make a connection... in a sea of vlogs, will anyone find you? Maybe you don't care. But maybe it'll be easier for people to find you in an aggregator. If you're trying to do a "vlog show" and make money with ads (EVIL!!!!!) it's the same deal. As long as you can track it.
Whatever you're doing with your RSS-fed content, I think it's important to have SOME control over where it goes. If an aggragator is not reputable, or is lumping your personal video in with porn, you should be able to yank it easily. Or -- maybe it shouldn't be there in the first place, unless you opted in.
But what if Veoh did everything right, at least with attribution and linkbacks, etc. -- would you care if you hadn't opted in? Maybe they start out NOT hosting or transcoding your video, but if you claim your feed you can opt to have them host it. There are all these little details, and I think we react differently to how it's all packaged and what the intentions are.
Which is why I wouldn't want to start an aggregator. :-)
Posted by: chuck at Apr 10, 2006 3:51:01 PM
a small mnstories.com window burn on all your content may help lead the VEOH viewers to your site and along with the truth coming out in blogland,
freedom will reign.
Posted by: brian at Apr 11, 2006 12:31:51 AM
Chuck wrote:
"But what if Veoh did everything right, at least with attribution and linkbacks, etc. -- would you care if you hadn't opted in? Maybe they start out NOT hosting or transcoding your video, but if you claim your feed you can opt to have them host it. There are all these little details, and I think we react differently to how it's all packaged and what the intentions are."
I wouldn't have had a problem. My main beef is that we have a CC license (by-attribution, non commercial) on the videos. This license is in the feed via FeedBurner.
I don't know what else I would have to do to indicate that if they aren't providing linkbacks, don't repost the feed's data :)
Posted by: Devlon at Apr 18, 2006 9:15:51 PM
